Jenn Turner
Thanks for joining me, Dave. I'm so glad you're here. I have worked with you for a long time, and I'll just share a little bit for our listeners about who you are. So Dave Emerson is the originator of trauma sensitive yoga and the co founder and co director of the Center for trauma and embodiment. Dave has provided international training since 2006 and has developed, conducted and supervised Trauma Center, trauma sensitive yoga groups for rape crisis centers, domestic violence programs, residential programs for youth, active duty military personnel, survivors of terrorism and veteran administration centers and clinics and more. He is the author and co author of numerous papers on yoga and trauma, and the co author of overcoming trauma through yoga, and the author of trauma sensitive yoga and therapy. Quite a bio, Dave, thanks for being here. That
Dave Emerson
was really fun to be here. Looking forward to our conversation. Me
Jenn Turner
too. So Dave's going to start us out with some kind of grounding embodiment moment. I'll hand it over to you, Dave,
Dave Emerson
great. What a fun way to start kind of where at the beginning in a certain sense, which is with our embodied experience. So for anybody who's interested, if you like, feel free to give yourself a moment to find a way of sitting or just getting oriented in your body. So you may be interested in standing or sitting on floor. Maybe you're oriented in a different way in your body, but it's a moment to kind of attend to yourself and make a choice about how you want to be situated in this moment. Welcome to have your eyes open or closed. That's a choice. Maybe beginning to add some movement so how, however you're oriented in your body. Maybe adding some movement on purpose. One way you might do that is shifting from side to side. You may discover another way of moving that you're interested in in this moment. But one possibility could be shifting from side to side. And you may begin if you if you're moving in some way, you might start to feel some sensation, and that could be connection points between your body and in any surface that you're connected to. So you might start to feel those contact points. You another thing you might feel is sensation more in your body, like in your muscles, and if you're moving, that sensation may change so the the dynamic the muscles that are engaging may be changing, so you might feel some sensation there, and you're welcome to stay with anything you've kind of discovered for yourself here. Another option is moving to another intentional kind of movement, and that might be some neck rotation. So if you're interested in that, basically turning your chin from side to side. So it's rotating or turning your chin. If you want to do this one, that's one option for a neck and neck movement. Another possibility could be more of a circular or a different kind of circle with your neck, and that might be dropping your chin through the middle and rolling from side to side, so kind of a rolling type action. And me and you might discover another way of moving your neck that you're interested in. These might be two possibilities, maybe beginning to feel some sensation around your neck if you're doing this movement. And again, you're welcome to stay here if you've discovered something you want to stay with here if you want to try one more kind of movement, maybe some shoulder movements. And one option there might be rolling your shoulders, and you could choose for yourself. You could roll your shoulders forwards or backwards. So maybe a possibility there of rolling your shoulders in either direction another way you might move your shoulders could be bringing your fingertips to the top of your shoulders and making the circles with your elbows. So. So just another way, possibly, of moving your shoulders, maybe beginning to feel some sensation around your shoulders. Maybe, if you're moving, maybe starting to feel some feeling or sensation around your shoulders. And you have a choice here. If you're moving your shoulders, you can choose the size of these movements, the range of movement, and whenever you're ready, maybe coming back to neutral, and you're welcome to take your time there.
Jenn Turner
Thanks, Dave, it's always wonderful to be led by you. So thank you. So just to give folks a context, you and I have been working together and known one another since 2007 but I'm wondering if you could start us a little earlier and talk a bit about how you found your way to trauma work and trauma care. And you know, any version of that you want to share would be great.
Dave Emerson
Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah. So what would I say? I mean, for me, personally, from like, a professional perspective, there's the professional part and then the personal part, and I think, you know, and then they intersect, as it happens for so many of us, right, as we kind of get into the work and into the into the field, in a sense, but from the sort of professional side, I worked in a space that was body oriented for about a decade after I graduated from college. So this is the early 90s, the early 90s project adventure, which is similar to Outward Bound. Maybe folks have heard of that, really. The principle was, you know, in this case, young kids, male, male identified kids who are having trouble in their environment, giving them a chance to get out of their environment into some new space and just have physical activity be the centerpiece, really. So, climbing trees, you know, rowing boats, chopping wood. It was a kind of a holistic experience that really centered the body experience. And at the time I we never used the word trauma. Really, it was, you know, even older language, like delinquency or like juvenile offenders even kind of teetered on that edge, kids who were problematic. But the feeling was, you know, survivor, somebody who has survived something, who is responding to that kind of dynamic, and the freedom of getting out of that space and having a new context, really, I think, was what was kind of profound for me as a young person, to be like I can hold that. I can help hold that space for these kids like they come here in their their reputation doesn't necessarily precede them. They can let that go, or it can be let go of by others, and they, you know, they get to have new experiences. And it doesn't mean that we don't bring our whole self to these experiences. I think I understood the complexity, you know, in a way, not an intellectual way, of what, what we bring with us, really, wherever we go. But there was something freeing about being able to center our embodied self and not have to be talking, you know, about our problems or our difficulties. So that was really compelling for me, and I kind of followed that. And I for me personally, it was well, what comes next after that. And I thought, because of my lineage, you know, my my parents were both guidance counselors and therapists, that I thought that would be the path for me to go, go down, become a clinical social worker, basically. And so I did that. I went down that road, and I enjoyed the classes, but I was really frustrated. I felt very stifled, just personally in my capacity to be helpful under those kinds of constraints in that context. And I think I remember sitting with people, especially in a particular internship that I had, like physically sitting with some people, one person I'm thinking of in particular right now, and being very clear to myself that I have no words, like I don't have language now, the best I can do is kind of sit here with you. And there was something about that, like this physical component, that I was like, Okay, well, at least there's that. But. But, you know, in my desire to be helpful, I think I was handed this, this language modality, and that I couldn't figure it out I did not have words that I thought would be helpful. So that became, you know, super frustrating for me, and on the and then at the same time, then at the same time, there's a personal parallel happening. I don't know if you want me to start to bring that in here. Sure. Yeah. I mean, as much as you're comfortable with that, absolutely, yeah, I think so. At the same time as I'm trying to struggle with, you know, how do I, how do I show up, using language as the medium I'm personally, you know, experiencing some traumatic loss in my life, and other dynamics around that, in turning to embodied practices for myself, when in the for me, it was Tai Chi at first, and that I really think of it as a safe as a saving experience, the the capacity to Just really attend to what was happening in my body, and that practice at the time was so it was minute. It really focused on, like, small, embodied experiences, you know, really being attentive to them, and that was super helpful for me. So I think what ended up happening was that just became more compelling, and it moved into yoga after a few years, I did feel like the physicality of the way that yoga was available to me, and like the Western world at the time, was really helpful. So it was, I was experiencing it personally as therapeutic. You know, I guess I would say. And then transitioning my thought process from, how can I be helpful to other people? Right from like, here's the path that's that's kind of ahead of me, which is this clinical social worker path that's not going to work for me, and I'm having this other experience physically. And it just sort of came together at a certain point. Like, well, this, maybe I can translate this into my, you know, my interest in being helpful. And I do remember, like I would went to the Smith school for social work in a very clinical program, which I really did enjoy. And there were two books that weren't on the syllabus that they happened to read. I just remember finding them in the stack somehow. I don't remember how I got to them. And one was trauma and recovery by Judith Herman. And the other one is an edited book at the time, it was called traumatic stress that had an essay by Bessel van der Kolk in there called the Body Keeps the Score. And it was such a great title that it was so compelling, you know, both, both of those books. So like, here's this thing, right, this holistic thing trauma that is, you know, impactful in a full organism way. And then there's this other perspective that our bodies are a reasonable way to approach healing. And I just, I saw some opportunity there for, you know, these two things to kind of come together for me.
Jenn Turner
And at that point, were people talking about trauma in general, or you just found it in these kind of corners of the stacks.
Dave Emerson
I don't really remember, right? Like, so in my personal world, like, I didn't hear it in though, that previous decade with the like, the project adventure type stuff with the youth, I didn't hear that language. I did a couple of other like milieu staff jobs in that period too, I never heard the words trauma. So for me, it was new, right? It was like it was new language and was a new perspective. And I in the first entry point for me was PTSD, you know that when I kind of turned toward this. I started a nonprofit called the Black Lotus yoga project to teach yoga to people with PTSD. That was kind of the first step. And then I got to, you know, through by, you know, my good fortune to meet Dessel van der Kolk and folks at the trauma center. At the time, I got to learn a lot more about trauma, because they were, they were focused, you know, that group was really focused on understanding the complexity of trauma, and so I got to get involved. There
Jenn Turner
was there a moment for you? I think in my mind, I tell this story when I tell an abbreviated version of this, if I'm leading a training or something, I will talk about how there was a decision point where you felt like you had to do research or or get engaged in that. But was it? Was it that wet? Was it conscious, or did you just sort of find your way there? Because I think for me, what's so unique about you. The work that you started, that I got to then join you in, is, is the research component? So is that a conscious thing? Is that something that just kind of unfolded? Yeah, totally,
Dave Emerson
totally conscious. I mean, you know, there was the I was, you know, compelled and interested in seeing the possibility for yoga as a treatment for PTSD first. And I had been I started to be a yoga teacher a couple years prior to that, so I sort of shifted from the Social Work world, and I was teaching yoga and health clubs and really enjoying it, actually, in many ways. And then sort of that bridge moment kind of came, and I felt like, in order for this to, you know, kind of take some next steps, it did have to be scrutinized from a research perspective. And that's, you know, for me, I'd live about a mile and a half from where Bessel was working at the time, and the trauma center existed. So just remembered that book, you know, and I was like, well, there's a person who is talking about the buy in in the context of trauma, and their researcher, I was cognizant of their research track record, and so I reached out specifically with the idea that, you know, here's this idea. How would you like to research this? So it was really conscious and and that really was the, you know, the motivation there was, you know, I had seen from the inside that yoga is a space the way it shows up here, like in the Western culture, is there just really aren't any guardrails, so people can make all kinds of claims about what this thing can can do for you. And I didn't feel like I didn't want, I didn't want to participate in that kind of lineage of like, just making claims. So I felt like we needed to have that outside scrutiny. You know, the scientific method needed to be applied as best as possible. So I wanted, you know, some serious researchers being involved. So it's really part of it from the start there.
Jenn Turner
Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, I really resonate with that kind of smoke and mirrors that can happen in the yoga world and and and in the psychology world. So as you're doing the research process and starting that out with some of the smaller pilot studies, what were you learning as you were going both maybe from the research, but also building the projects? Can you share a little bit about that?
Dave Emerson
Yeah, and there are a couple things that really stand out for me. Some of it was feedback that I got that really helped me start to learn. And then what we were learning from the group. First thing we tried to do was create a body awareness scale ourselves that could give people a chance to share feedback about their embodied experience, we couldn't really find anything that was on the mark for us. So creating a scale about basically like your friendliness, your relationship to your body, from that perspective, do I like my body more or less after doing this stuff, that was really an interesting piece of feedback. And we compared our very early days yoga model to dialectical behavioral therapy group that was already existing, which is, you know, as I understand it, it's a pretty top down thing. It's a pretty like cognitive and behavioral process, thinking about your experiences and projecting forward about how you want to show up and behave. So we asked people that did that, and also our eight weeks of yoga at the time, like, how do you feel about your body after you've done this? And the yoga group felt significantly better about their body, and the other group actually felt worse. And I was, I don't know, you know, it was a very small pilot, and we don't need to draw too many conclusions. I don't think you can scientifically from there. But it was, it was interesting to see people were doing this thing, feeling better about their bodies. I know the clinicians in the group were like, that caught their attention. And then a couple of other things that really stood out that I remember were nobody dropped out of that pilot group, and people were impressed. You know, they the folks could show up and do this body work, this body care work, and show up for eight weeks. And the other one was feedback at the end. So everybody got the invitation to do an exit interview after the eight weeks of the yoga session, and the clinicians did the exit interviews. And the one that really stood out was basically the question was, you know, what did, what did you get out of this? For you personally. What did you get out of this eight weeks of doing yoga, you know? And the person looked the way it was described to me, was it was a very visceral experience. They, like, looked this interviewer in the eye, and they they were emotional. They had tears in their eyes, very present, though. And they said, I went to the grocery store and I knew what I wanted. And it was, first of all for me seeing, you know, like a senior therapist say, this is really important. I didn't quite understand the the what that meant at the time, but I thought it was I was in I was impressed by the fact that that was what was important to the group, because it seemed subtle. I went to the grocery store and I knew what I wanted. I feel like I've learned much more about what that means over time. That embodied sense of agency, like I have needs and I know what to do about them, but at the time, I think I could see how that impressed the clinical team. And I feel like that was why we got to do the next pilot study, basically why they started to put the effort into finding funding for this project because of that. So, yeah, those were, you know, really impressive. And then the feedback I got was, this was another thing, actually, that impressed the clinicians, that people were willing to give me feedback, especially on little feedback. Like, if, you know, this isn't like a yoga studio, the way you're showing up here, you need to dress differently. It's not like a, you know, like a vice bicycling class. Like, think about the way you're showing up and how you're presenting yourself. And it was, it was good for me. It's like, right? This isn't a yoga studio. There's something different here. How do I need to attend to the way to myself, how I'm showing up? In a sense, it was pretty superficial, if you think of it, just as the way I dress at the time. But I think people were basically saying, we want this thing, but we need you to be a little bit more attuned, right to how you're showing up in the space. And that's evolved over time, to be not just like the way I dress, but how I'm showing up. And I think that was a cool early example of that for me, like, Can I hear that? You know, Can I listen to that? And can I try to learn from that? So lock him out of that first pilot.
Jenn Turner
To me, there's, yeah, there's so much there. Even in when I think about the work that we've gotten to do together, there's been this increasing emphasis on, how do I show up, how do I how to, how does, how do I express my power? How do I share power that I've been innately given, or that I've been institutionally given? So it's cool to hear those seedlings in those moments when you're just starting this work and welcoming that feedback and responding to it, I think is what I'm hearing too, right? Like we can take feedback, but if we don't do anything with that, we don't change the way we dress, or we don't change how we show up, then we're just doing more harm. But it sounds like you are receptive, or in an environment that was also receptive to survivors are experts of their experience. They know what they need. If we ask them, or they they may know. And we get to ask,
Dave Emerson
yeah, yeah. I think that's so true. And, you know, fast forward a couple years, I think of our our meeting 2007 and then really starting to build this model relation, the relational dynamic really becomes much more centered, right? Like, I don't as I think back personally, I don't think I didn't think of it as a relational experience in the early days, so much I thought of it more as a technical thing. Like, you know, this is cool idea that we could use our bodies to practice healing. We don't have to talk about trauma just to simplify it. But I didn't really think about how important the relationship was. I was getting those opportunities to respond like that. But I feel like when we you, and I really, when we started to do the work, we could really pick that up and deepen that, and center that, right? And I think as we're as we're learning about trauma over the years, where it becomes more clear all the time than it's always about the relationship, right? Trauma is always about power, and that includes the healing process too. It's always about the relationship. And, you know, yeah, I agree. And I think you know for me being learning, that mistakes are inevitable, you know, and that that's also part of the dynamic making mistakes as a provider, let's say care provider. Is absolutely inevitable, and it's what happens next, you know, and that became, I think I got a little less afraid of making mistakes. You know, for me is I think about it make not making mistakes or being afraid to be imperfect, is is artificial. And I think it creates a relationship that is artificial, right? It's like, I have the answers, and if you don't, if you don't get this, it's not it's your you've got to deal with that follow up. It's on you, as opposed to, I have some things, they may or may not resonate with you, and they there also may be room for these things to be, for us to collaborate on what this actually is and how it actually you know, how you make use of it, and how it shows up for you, and That is a very vulnerable and imperfect space. And part of the learning process for me has is it's, you know, started to involve that more and more. Like, what's that like? What's it like to offer something but not be the unassailable expert, you know, and to kind of show up, you know, I think what we would say about this particular model, this TC tsy model, is the facilitator is also showing up in the moment and practicing something. And I think part of what we're practicing is being imperfect, you know, feeling sensation that we don't understand in our bodies, having to respond to that, making a choice that might create more discomfort. And then what do we do with that? So the whole practice starts to become an element of vulnerability, you know, and I think that that really opens up a lot of space for trauma healing.
Jenn Turner
I always think it's such a powerful line to walk around wanting to continue to grow knowledge and expertise and be willing, in any moment to, like, throw it away or let it like, step back to honor the experience someone is having with you. Think about the amount of harm that can happen when something is like manualized, or there's a protocol, or this is how we do healing, or, you know, any of that we potentially lose the opportunity to be responsive to the human that is with us, I guess. So I'm thinking about how, as you and I started working together and deepening into this relational aspect, you know, then there's like, I'm thinking of concentric circles. So then there's this experience where we're having and again, or at least that I'm having, of as we're doing this work of deepening into understanding the nuances of the relationship, making mistakes, having doing repairs, tending to all of that. And then in this larger context at the trauma center, there's all of these complex relational dynamics that are happening among the staff that are confusing, that are painful, and part of me, we could speak to that to some degree, right? But part of me is also curious if there is because we continue to deepen in the work and our I think our working relationship too as colleagues around power, sharing, understanding, feedback, being vulnerable in the work, that it became more and more obvious that this, there was this other dynamic happening in and amongst, you know, our colleagues that was, it was the antithesis of that. It was really, you know, kind of quite different from what we were learning and understanding
Dave Emerson
about, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, in some sense, it felt like the yoga program existed a little bit, it felt, and he so it felt like the yoga program existed outside of that orbit in a certain way, or another way for me to say that is I was, I was either shielded from that, or I wasn't able to see that. I think all of that is true, and those are different ways to say it. Just personally speaking my, you know, and then I'm having my own experiences, personally, growing, trying, you know, trying to grow the program and keep the collaborations going strong, and just feeling that power is always an issue, not just in trauma healing and what we were putting out into the world externally, but in how we're behaving with each other, you know, inside the system, like you said. And I think, yeah, the ways that that showed up for me were you. Uh, very they felt very personal. And then I think as time went on, I could see it more as the systemic thing. You know, I understood it more as a systemic thing. But I think for me, like one of the elements of learning there that this is where identity started to become more, I guess, salient for me, like I'm having these experiences. And it's not incidental that I you know, how I'm embodied as a white, male, cisgender person. I'm having a certain experience with the way power is being manipulated in the system that's different from other people around you, other colleagues that we have. And I think I couldn't, I didn't see it in a way for a while, right? I couldn't quite see, like, what is this like for other people? I know what it's like to, you know, manage domineering male figures as a male embodied person, I know, like, I know what bully dynamics are like, and I kind of that's familiar territory for me, and normalized in my experience, that's normal that had been normalized, like people with power, men with power, they they throw it around and they and it's also used as a shield, right? With the more power you have, the more protected you are from scrutiny. And I kind of know those rules like I grew up. I learned those rules, but I I started to feel like I started to learn what it was like for other people, because I think that you know, my interpretation of that dynamic is very connected to my identities. How do you manage a like a bully? That's I know how to do that from my perspective, but how to survive when someone is, you know, manipulating their power, when you have other identities, when your career is threatened in a different way that I didn't understand. And I felt like, you know, because we are opening up this space where trauma care, trauma and trauma care is all about relational power dynamics, we had an opportunity to stop being active. What is it like, you know, internally as well. How do we, you know, how do we, you know, how do we start to scrutinize that a little bit so became real? Yeah,
Jenn Turner
I think it's so potent to look at and to look at the ways that we're not always encouraged to tend to our inner experience, particularly when we are providers, right? Like, I think you and I had started doing the work around, we want to tend to how we're showing up. We want to look at our power and how we share it, but not as much around. What is it like for me to work in this place? Is it okay for me? Do I feel safe? What about my own survivorship? That's one thing that I also continue to be interested in is, like, you know, so many people, so many of us, are drawn to this work of trauma care, because we have our own histories, our own pain, our own loss and and yet there can be this Really powerful double double standard where we'll tend to our clients, the people we serve in with such care and intention, and turn toward each other in a really different way. And that can be so painful, I think it causes a ton of burnout and vicarious trauma. So I think you know when I think back to that time where we you and I, but also collectively, that community around the trauma center started to really reckon with what is it like to be here and work here, and is it safe for me? We had such a powerful opportunity to then wonder, what would it be like to try and create something different? And to me, that's kind of been the last eight years or so, right? Is like, how can we keep focusing on the work, but also turn toward each other in how we treat one another, how how power moves between us as colleagues, and that, to me, has been such and continues to be such a rich learning experience.
Dave Emerson
Yeah, totally agree, and I think that's a that's a great way to put it right, rich learning experience. It is constant process of learning, and I think that dynamic of vulnerability is the capacity to be uncomfortable for me has been important, and I think that also is different, right for each of us. I think I. As we're getting into the nuances of this right over these past eight years, like, what is it actually like to try to create a work environment right that also tends to the relationship and the power dynamics? So we can do like you and I, we've done things like create a co directorship as a direct response. We have a leadership team as a direct response to that, we still are going to be in these cycles of, you know, making mistakes. Now I'm just speaking for myself. I get, I get to continuously make mistakes and continuously get feedback. And I think the the capacity, you know, the I think the work, part of the work for us as trauma stewards, trauma aspiring trauma care providers, is to keep expanding our capacity to be vulnerable and to receive feedback. And that's it's not for everybody, maybe. Or another way to say it is, we need to be cognizant of that, I think. And it takes work, right? Like it takes work, it's always evolving, and it's always it's relentless, but not in a in a way that is potentially overwhelming. It's definitely like riding that wave. You know, the wave is always there. But you know, if you can, if you can write it, that's the work, yeah, and, you know, right? Like we, you and I have different identities. We've been talking about that over the years, like our experiences will be different with how power moves, how people treat us, like we've gotten to see that face to face many times. We have colleagues with different identities that have different experiences with the world that and then we show up with them. And, you know, we have different kinds of interactions. It's just constantly, it's an opportunity all the time. And meanwhile, we have these care models that, you know, in the case of TC tsy, has arrived, right? It's arrived in the world, and it is now available. That's here, and part of what we want to be doing is getting this to more people. And the workplace structure is, like, we have to attend to that every day that hasn't arrived. Like, it's a constantly arriving
Jenn Turner
process. When I think about the like, you know, if we started the Center for trauma and embodiment right out of the trauma center kind of falling apart because of power dynamics in the workplace, then we decide to create this thing together, and it still is so challenging now, even eight years in, to have the conversations that you have to continuously have to look at, how am I using my power? How am I not seeing how I'm hoarding power? It's getting siloed. How am I not understanding how my identity interacts with someone else's identity and how challenging those even if we believe in it deeply, to continue to show up and be curious and vulnerable in that space is incredibly challenging. And I think, you know, in a lot of ways, that's why we wanted to start, and I really wanted to start this podcast was a chance to be able to share with folks those conversations how sticky that can be and how challenging and how rewarding it can be too to when you begin to name these power dynamics and How intersects with trauma, and sort of share that outwardly with folks, because to me, that's the work those when we're like, slogging through those moments.
Dave Emerson
So yeah, totally Yeah. And I think we've had all these, we've had you and I have had so many moments over the years where it's been, like, really glad you're there to be able to run this right, so that your the podcast is is an opportunity to create that kind of space for other people, because this is hard work, and we can, we can acknowledge that it is maybe some of the most important work that we do to scrutinize ourselves right through this lens of power. One way I've been thinking about it organizationally lately is we want to create an organization where the people with more power are actually open to more scrutiny, as opposed to hoarding power protects you. You know, I think the systems as they kind of exist, the more power you get, the less scrutiny you get, like you're supposed to be kind of siloed and protected. And I think we're trying to create an organization where that actually is flipped, right? So the people with less power don't have to do all the emotional work from kind of maintaining the structure. It's actually the people with more power. So. Was a job description element sets, and I think we do talk to people about that more now, right? We're trying to practice that and learn that, what that actually feels like, and then, then we can sort of communicate that as a tangible value, right? As a way to kind of share what it is we're trying to do here.
Jenn Turner
That's great. I love the way you just said that around how when you have, when you hold more power, you have it organizationally, positionality wise, that you should anticipate and welcome in and ask for and create mechanisms for more feedback, because it's so often the opposite way, right? If you hold a position of leadership, you're expected to, like, bestow feedback upon everyone that you're supervising. But then, then we can't see and know how we're showing up. And this the paradigm is so ripe for trauma be when we have that dynamic, and so, yeah, to in order to not have that, or to upend it, the feedback has to be, like, even more. I like the way you really just said that. It clarified for me what we're doing in a different way.
Dave Emerson
Yeah, yeah, you know. I mean, we're all different people, right? I think just personally, my experience of with this, I remember hearing from people, and I think you've articulated this at times too over the years, which is this coming toward me like the direction toward me is people, I need to show up more. I need to be more visible. And that didn't you know as I interpret that and learn about that over time. It doesn't mean I need to be speaking more or more. I don't even publicly available. It's that I have to be more open to scrutiny and feedback. I think I need to be findable, right? I'm speaking for myself in this context so that people can, you know, I need to be more transparent, so that I can be held more accountable. And I think that that is the work of leadership is being able to be found. Because I think that dynamics that we have, that we we inherit, our leadership, actually kind of shrouds you more makes you more elusive, right? And more difficult to pin down, in a sense, because you can just say, because I said, So, right? Like you don't even have to give a reason for decisions in this world that we've created here, you just have power and you make decisions. And what we're trying to do is kind of open up that space more like so that, so that people can find us, and also so that they don't have to hold folks with less power in the system, don't have to bear the brunt of managing, kind of the emotional system right itself. P is the person with power, basically. And because that's, that's what we, you know, that's what we inherited, that's where we came from. But it's not just us, it's, it's probably the norm in terms of systems, yeah,
Jenn Turner
and that's how we're all taught to show up as laborers and workers and to expect that, you know, and so creating a new paradigm is takes time and continuous feedback from each other too. So I think that's kind of an interesting process that we've gotten to engage in. It's like, okay, how do we ask for feedback from the people our team, the people we work with? But then also, how do we look to each other to say, like, how is this going? Are we doing what we're what we set out to do? How do we need to change that? And to me, the word curiosity always comes up. It's like continual curiosity so that we can continue to learn. I feel like we could keep talking four hours here, but maybe we'll do a kind of a bite today, and then we can do another one at another time. But thank you so much for talking with me and sharing more about how you came to this work. I love hearing that from you, and so excited to share with everyone too, absolutely for sure. So we'll have links to all the things to learn more about Dave, the work that he's done through the years, his books and papers. Thank you so much.
Dave Emerson
You're welcome. Nice talking with you, Jenn, you.
